Female Student joined the Chat
Julie Daniels joined the Chat
Julie Daniels: Morning, Female
Male Student joined the Chat
Female Student: Morning, Julie.
Female Student: Male, how's your project coming?
Male Student: Eh, it's getting there. Dealing with a lot of other frustrations first though.
Julie Daniels: @Male - frustrations are part of it, I think! :-)
Female Student: @Male, frustrations related to developing your project?
Male Student: Frustrations with everything related to this class. I sent Prof. Daniels a few e-mails.
Julie Daniels: @Male - when did you send me emails??
Male Student: Yestesday about this time.
Julie Daniels: @Male - ah, I don't go online over the weekends, so I'll check my email right now
…
Female Student: I'm off to work. Goodbye.
Female Student left the Chat
Julie Daniels: @Male - are you still there?
Male Student: Yes.
Julie Daniels: So do you have any questions to ask?
Male Student: Not particularly, just wanted to make sure you read my e-mails.
Julie Daniels: Yep, I'm reading them right now!
Julie Daniels: I'm writing responses, too
Julie Daniels: Check your email! :-)
Male Student: I am. finding some of the important points I made to be "skipped"
Julie Daniels: @Male - what do you mean?
Male Student: For example: "As I mentioned in the syllabus, the way to find out how you're doing with the discussions is to look at the "stars" after your post." I look at my stars and see 4's and 5's. Those star ratings never tell me that I'm getting half my points cut.
Julie Daniels: I responded to your email sentence-by-sentence, just about!
Julie Daniels: @Male - well, the half points came because you only answered half the question
Male Student: And when was I gonna find out that that was why? It happened for 4 weeks.
Male Student: And I couldn't look at my grades to see the trend because as far as I could see my grades weren't updated.
Male Student: As far as I was concerned I was answering the questions properly when I receiving 4-5 stars on each of my posts.
Male Student: I also was certain that I was answering all of the required questions. Maybe it was poorly emphasized in my writing style, I don't know.
Male Student: I have a tendency to, when given a couple related questions, to answer them at the same time.
Julie Daniels: @Male - I believe we had two questions in discussion for weeks 3, 4 and 5, not all weeks
Male Student: Alright, yeah, it was actually 3 weeks. 2 3 and 4.
Julie Daniels: @Male - yes, perhaps your answers are not as fully developed or sustained as they could be: specifics matter, and strong discussion posts will look more like the examples in the syllabus
Male Student: Well, how am I supposed to know I was doing something wrong?
Julie Daniels: Repeating oneself in a discussion post doesn't really show that the student is "discussing" or even really reading the prompts fully
Male Student: What *I* saw was 4/5 stars filled in next to my post.
Julie Daniels: @Male - well, I guess you know now! Or you could have read other students' posts
Male Student: I know now? Really? That's it?
Julie Daniels: @Male - yep, and so that would be 9 points out of 10
Male Student: It took HALF the semester to find out.
Julie Daniels: @Male - well, I'm not sure what else to tell you; an online course isn't an independent study, so the instructor doesn't communicate one-on-one with every student . . .
Male Student: yeah, 9 points out of 10. Or so I thought. Then i found out I get 4. But I don't find out I got only a 4 until 2 weeks later.
Julie Daniels: . . . the only tools we have are the course tools
Julie Daniels: and it sounds like you're using them . . .
Male Student: I can't use them.
Male Student: I can't look at my grades to see if something is going wrong because my grades keep staying way out of date.
Julie Daniels: @Male - the grades should be up-to-date . . . ?
Male Student: Recall that the same day I inquired about my low discussion points I also was waiting for my instructions to be graded.
Julie Daniels: @Male - yes, I recall
Male Student: so if that's not even up, how can I think my discussion posts are?
Julie Daniels: So are you able to move forward with discussions now?
Male Student: Especially when the point values I'm expecting aren't what I'm getting.
Julie Daniels: Have you checked in for this week's discussion yet?
Male Student: I can't even move forward with this class.
Male Student: This is completely ridiculous.
Julie Daniels: @Male - ??
Julie Daniels: I have to say that I don't understand your comment here: you have all your assignments with a ton of feedback from me -- why can't you move forward?
Julie Daniels: (I'm very confused!)
Male Student: I told you why. You skipped a lot of details, and didn't do much to combine how different things add up to very large problems.
Male Student: I'm already down to a 68% in the class, and when I keep losing points and not having any idea why until half the semester later, I can't do crap to fix that.
Male Student: And of course when you say "Well, now you know for the future" with only a couple weeks left, that's just stupid.
Male Student: I had ZERO way to figuring it out before.
Male Student: So if I have to suffer because I can't actually look into something, that's completely unfair.
Julie Daniels: @Male - well, my feedback on documents is the way to figure things out
Male Student: How does that help my discussions?
Julie Daniels: the grades tool is an insufficient way to figure things out
Julie Daniels: You're right that you can't change the past -- can't change the past discussion -- but you can do better in the future!
Male Student: Plus, you're forgetting that I also noted in the e-mail several poorly worded things in the assignment descriptions.
Male Student: Are you freakin' serious?
Male Student: Just so you know, I've talked to other people about how all this is going, I've actually been recommended to talk to the head of department.
Julie Daniels: Did you get a chance to read my responses to your email?
Julie Daniels: Did you get a chance to read my comments on your assignments?
Male Student: Yeah. I'm still waiting for the other half where you respond to where I have a point.
Julie Daniels: @Male - I sent as many responses as I knew to send; I don't know what you mean by "the other half"
Male Student: You skipped responding to anything where I actually made my point.
Julie Daniels: I guess you'll have to send me another email, then, because I responded to everything that I thought you asked
Male Student: To use this sentence again "As I mentioned in the syllabus, the way to find out how you're doing with the discussions is to look at the "stars" after your post. " When I *LOOK* and *SEE* a 4 star and a 5 star post every week, I *BELIEVE* I am doing a 9 star job.
Male Student: And then I get a 4.
Male Student: But I can't see that I got a 4 til 3 weeks later.
Male Student: So I keep doing what I do the next two week cause I think I'm getting 9 stars, which is pretty good.
Julie Daniels: @Male - yes, I remember that you asked this question already, and I responded that some weeks we had two discussion questions to respond to
Male Student: So then the next two weeks I do my same 9 star job. After all 3 weeks, I find out I get 12 points.
Male Student: You see the issue?
Male Student: There was no indication anywhere that I wasn't doing a 9 star job.
Male Student: So there was no way for me to know that I wasn't doing things right.
Julie Daniels: I guess I could say that the indication was in the number of questions that showed up in each discussion space . . .
Julie Daniels: . . . and you're right that you must have missed that indication about what the discussion each week consisted of
Male Student: Like I said, as far as I could consciously tell, I was answering them.
Male Student: And getting 4/5 stars.
Male Student: Please, stop avoiding the fact that there was no way for me to see that I wasn't doing it right.
Male Student: If I'm taking a math class where I'm LEARNING math, do you think the teacher is doing their job if they don't tell me that I'm doing it wrong?
Male Student: Likewise, if you're not giving any indication of me doing my assignments wrong, and it's apparently a consistent issue, are you really doing your job of teaching me the right technique?
Male Student: Or am I paying to not learn?
Julie Daniels: @Male - I'm not sure how to answer your messages here, other than to say what I have said
Male Student: Why aren't you sure how to answer? Because it would admit flaws in the curriculum?
Julie Daniels: There are many ways in our class for students to see how they're doing: the grades tool is just one (my feedback is another, reading other students posts, reading examples, analyzing the samples, reading the textbooks, etc.)
Male Student: None of those address the SPECIFIC example I'm presenting.
Male Student: Except perhaps reading others' posts, though I can quite easily counter that.
Male Student: What if they also lost half points for also answering only one of the questions? I can't see that they did.
Male Student: So if I see another 5 start post similar to mine, then I can't say I did mine wrong, now can I?
Julie Daniels: @Male - your message here indicate to me that you're frustrated and angry
Julie Daniels: But I can't do anything about the past at this point
Julie Daniels: And I do want to remind you that these chats are archived, in case that makes a difference to you
Male Student: See? You're avoiding it again.
Male Student: Have you noticed that?
Male Student: You wanted specifics, and details right? Well I presented them.
Male Student: And now you're trying to avoid what I'm talking about.
Julie Daniels: @Male - I am also thinking that you're misunderstanding something: the grades percentage might be sending you the wrong message . . .
Male Student: Percentage?
Julie Daniels: you mentioned that you're seeing 68%?
Male Student: Yeah. That's points earned / points I've tried to earn * 100
Julie Daniels: I think that's out of the total points possible for the whole course, which is not done yet . . .
Male Student: My own math.
Male Student: No, that's not total points.
Male Student: That's total so far.
Julie Daniels: Ah, okay: your own math!
Julie Daniels: Then never mind -- I was just trying to figure things out
Julie Daniels: Looks like you missed a quiz, missed blog post points -- but in other assignments, you're doing okay
Julie Daniels: The first progress memo was low, but your next two should be high, right?
Male Student: Probably not. Sounds like no matter how hard I try I lose points over something not explained clearly.
Male Student: Though I do have an excuse that won't be considered, that being the fact that I've already been yelled at for being on the computer too much and thus forcing me to not be able to use it as much.
Male Student: Of course, I'd also have an extra 5 points on the blog posts if it my 14 hour blackout was considering.
Julie Daniels: @Male - now that you know you need to complete three exercises on the progress memos, will you be able to do so?
Male Student: I know that I am very tempted to take the suggestion of talking to the dean.
Male Student: er, not the dead, head of english.
Male Student: Because let's face it, if someone isn't doing something right to demonstrate what they should be learning in the class, and the teacher doesn't tell me, the teacher isn't teaching.
Male Student: and since that's what the student pays for, they're not getting what they paid for.
Julie Daniels: @Male - I've just done the math for you, too, and I get that you've earned 344 points out of a possible 465 at this point in the semester . . .
Julie Daniels: That's 74%
Julie Daniels: not 68%
Julie Daniels: So maybe you're doing better than you think you are?
Male Student: I just added, foudn 515 points..
Male Student: Though this math is once again avoiding the discussion.
Julie Daniels: Maybe you used the wrong totals -- for Discussions, for instance, you'd use the total of 50 rather than 80 since we've just had five weeks, not 8
Male Student: Did that.
Julie Daniels: And for progress memos, I didn't use that total at this point because only the highest two memos count toward your grade
Male Student: Also only used 40 for blogs.
Julie Daniels: right, 40 for blog posts
Julie Daniels: so where do you suppose the extra 50 points come from?
Male Student: But like I said, this is a red herring.
Julie Daniels: I am not sure that I see it as a red herring since you began this discussion with unhappiness related to your grade percentage . . .
Julie Daniels: . . . so I thought I'd double-check for you
Male Student: I'm the student that only did half his calc 2 final because he knew that's all he needed for the only grade he was gonna get.
Male Student: er, calc 1 final.
Julie Daniels: the other big issue for you seems to be that you missed some weeks of the two-question discussion posts . . . and I can't do anything about that miss at this point
Male Student: Well, why didn't something happen then?
Julie Daniels: Pardon me? I don't understand your question
Male Student: I'm not learning if I don't get told I'm doing it wrong.
Male Student: If I say 2 time 2 is 5, and my math teacher never tells me I'm doing it wrong, did I actually learn math?
Julie Daniels: But you weren't doing anything "wrong" -- you were just missing some things (discussion questions, a quiz)
Male Student: Isn't that doing something wrong? It results is 55% of my grade being lost.
Julie Daniels: students get to choose what they ignore in an online class -- because it's not an independent study, and because I don't double-check every student's access to every item in our course, I can't tell you that you've chosen to ignore something . . .
Male Student: I chose to ignore? Way to blame the student.
Julie Daniels: But that's your choice to ignore the questions --
Male Student: Are you sure you didn't choose to see if one sentence answered two questions? Maybe you just skimmed through it?
Julie Daniels: I'm not "blaming" anyone, I'm just saying that students make choices
Male Student: As do teachers.
Julie Daniels: As do humans! :-)
Male Student: So like I said, are you sure you didn't *choose* not to see if one sentence answered 2 question?
Julie Daniels: @Male - no, I read the student posts thoroughly
Male Student: Or that instead of missing a question I just didn't have much of a response for it, so instead of losing not only half points for questions but also half points for my responses to others, it might have just been a 2 point deduction?
Male Student: Out of curiosity, do you still have access to the responses?
Male Student: Or discussions rather.
Julie Daniels: Anyway, I am going to sit quietly for a while to see if anyone joins the last 20 minutes of our chat --
Julie Daniels: I've said as much to you as I can at this point
Male Student: As much as you're willing to.
Male Student: I've shown this discussion to others already, they agree, you're avoiding the issue.
Male Student: Unanswered questions: Male Student: If I say 2 time 2 is 5, and my math teacher never tells me I'm doing it wrong, did I actually learn math?
Male Student: Out of curiosity, do you still have access to the responses?
Male Student: Now off to find an e-mail.
Male Student left the Chat
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